Separation of Church and State

I don't understand why people consider the "separation of church and state" as a constitutional argument. It is not stated anywhere in the U.S. Constitution. Thomas Jefferson wrote these words in a letter to the Danbury Baptists Association in reply to a letter they sent to him with specific concerns they had of the federal government impeding with their "freedom of religion" in the First Amendment. The Danbury Baptist were concerned with the wording of the First Amendment, and felt that the the way the First Amendment was worded implied that the "Free Exercise of Religion Clause" was government-given vs God-given. Their main concern was that the government would eventually use their power to regulate that aspect of religious expression. In Jefferson's letter in response, he replied, "Gentlemen, – The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association give me the highest satisfaction. . . . Be... Read more

The Constitution needs to be amended one way or the other. Either get rid of this 'created, Creator' speak, or make it unconstitutional to jail anyone for anything. There's a hell for that, right? For some reason the education system is mentioned in several posts below. A common theme is that 'everything taught in school' is a theory and kids are 'accepting it as fact'. Eh, not as I recall. I remember learning about the 'theory' of evolution in the ninth grade. See, they give you guys time to come up with your own stupid ideas about the world! How can you complain? If it wasn't for the education system, words like 'theory' wouldn't be in your vocabulary, friend. If you were told to accept anything as fact, you would have. Period. You are sheep.

The #3 issue on this list is no surprise considering what the #s 1 & 2 are. There are two main groups at war on this issue, both dogmatic and narrow-minded: the Bible thumpers and the Constitution thumpers, both driven by their zeal for, respectively, the freedom of idolatry and hedonism. I take on Bible thumpers all of the time, so here I am going to take on the other group, the Constitution thumpers. Of all the debates I have seen on this thread, not one addresses the central issue of this debate: the viability of the Constitution itself. Let's review! When this country was first settled by the White Man (and by "settled" I mean by exterminating the Native Americans and stealing their land), it was mainly in the interests of booty capitalism, even though small groups of roundheads did settle here and there because of religious persecution. As the English colonies were established, they also brought with them the legal system of Britain: English Common Law. That was the law of the... Read more

The perceived lack of separation, or the notion that a sign that says Merry Christmas at the local civic center will lead this country down the road to theocracy is not only silly, its an obvious ploy by some groups to push their progressive agenda. Big shocker there eh?

Ladies and gentleman, let's all take a moment to truly understand this issue of Separation of Church and State. The term separation literally means cessation of conjugal cohabitation, as by mutual consent in terms of Law. What this basically means is both agree to have nothing to do with one another. By one another, I mean the Church (religious views and biases of what is right and wrong set by a higher power) and the State (the continental U.S.A). Let me ask you a question and see if you can connect the dots. If all trees have leaves, is it logical to try to separate them? Of course not. Trees come with leaves - leaves are on trees. They always have been, always will be. Are you getting the picture? All governmental decision, policies, and laws are based off of right and wrong. Religions have established right and wrong long before governments were in effect. When governments were put into effect, they consolidated and based all governmental decisions off of what their religion dic... Read more

I find it ironic that we try so hard to separate church and state when they both serve the same purpose. Religion and government both control the masses and enforce law by issuance of guilt or by instilling fear of suffering some penalty, sanction, or financial loss. Yet, how hypocritical that it is says, "In God we trust" on the back of all US currency.

Two of the indisputable foundations that the United States Constitution was founded upon was the ideals of separation of church and state, and of religious freedom. It is a shame that some of the extreme right are starting to take the opposite philosophy, - that you can't be a member of the GOP without a certain Christian fervor, and you have to have that faith transferring to your personal politics in a direct way. I am not saying there are not extreme left wingers who are not also just as looney in their own way, but in this specific issue it is the extreme right that is the problem. Keep religion out of politics and let people worship in whatever way they choose. Some Christians like to feel like they are persecuted in the United States, which is ridiculous, if anything it is anyone who doesn't believe in what they do that gets the critical eye. My father is very proud of his Christian faith and I admire him for it, and I admire him also because he doesn't let his faith interfere wi... Read more

keep god or gods out of our laws as the last time Religion ruled we called it the dark ages.

To take unproven scientific methods that are taught in public schools requires just as much faith to believe as to believe in God. The Separation of Church and State is pure deception and word twisting. While no religion should be forced on anybody (it all comes down to personal choice/faith), nor should illogical scientific theories!

SEPERATION of church and state. NOT removal of church FROM state. NOT exclusion of churches with opposing views. In this country you have the right to believe or disbelieve what ever your heart desires, just don't take other peoples views away from them, and don't tie someone down and force them to believe as you.

If it actually existed, it would be very helpful.

The 1st Amendment to the Constitution prevents the United States government from establishing a national church. It does not prevent the word God to be taken out of the public square. God should be left left on the money, the pledge should continue to be said in schools, and the Ten Commandments can be put anywhere that the people of that community would like. These Agnostics and Atheists can just get over it and return back to their pathetic, pointless, meaningless lives.

This has been a sleeper issue that your typical American slob has ignored, mostly because most of your typical American slobs have been totally poisoned and mystified by their Christian gutter religion.  It's difficult to pay attention to this issue when you believe in a Fictional Character and an Imaginary Friend.  Handjob Bush has been able to foster his unconstitutional and unamerican "faith-based initiative" for years while the American public has had its attention diverted by that unnecessary fiasco in Iraq and the financial disaster brought on by the reckless and idiotic deregulation policies of the current administration.  It appears that the Handjob administration now feels it is legally justified in not only squandering the taxpayers' money in supporting, and thereby enfranchising Christian organizations, but also in making such establishment efforts toward organizations that do not hire prospective employees who do not practice its faith.  This is not only a misappropriation ... Read more

Sometimes the ACLU  is a bit overzealous in their efforts, but preventing government from promoting particular religions is a worthy cause. If a sect wants public displays of their religious symbols, they should be (and are) free to mount them on private property. If individuals wish to pray to their particular God or gods, that should be (and is) their right, but when pressure to participate in the prayers of a majority religion is brought to bear on non-believers, the state has overstepped its bounds and must be reined in.<<< Most Americans have been aware that religious right Republicans have become extremely active politically in the last twenty years. But because we're Americans and we're mostly tolerant of other people's religious beliefs, their rise to power hasn't really troubled us. We should be troubled. There is now overwhelming evidence that conservative Christians set out to takeover the government of the United States and impose their culture and values upon all Americans... Read more

Tough to rate something that does not exist- at least the way this phrase is (mis)used."Congress shall pass no law respecting the establishment of a religion or abridging the free excerise thereof..." This means what it says and nothing more. It does not mean that there can be no prayer in schools, nativity scenes on courthouse steps, etc. Jefferson used this term one time in a private letter- it appears NOWHERE in the US Constitution.<<< Most Americans have been aware that religious right Republicans have become extremely active politically in the last twenty years. But because we're Americans and we're mostly tolerant of other people's religious beliefs, their rise to power hasn't really troubled us. We should be troubled. There is now overwhelming evidence that conservative Christians set out to takeover the government of the United States and impose their culture and values upon all Americans. >>>fit has to resort to lies to make a (choke) point.

1.  I don't want anyone to try to force, or even persuade, me to believe in any religion.  Religious freedom is freedom of religion and freedom from religion.  You believe whatever you want, and I'll do the same. 2.  I don't want anyone to place their religious symbols on or in anything I helped pay for with my taxes, anymore than I would want or allow them to place those symbols on my house or a bumper sticker on my car. 3.  I'll leave you alone to gather with others who have your religious beliefs, but keep it out of my face.  I've been educated in and about religion, and I've made up my own mind about things.  Don't come knocking on my door with religious pamphlets.  Don't try to lobby my political representatives to adopt your religious beliefs in any form.  I know some of you believe in being evangelical, but if you intrude into my space and I warn you off, you'd better scram. Should you try to bring your religion into my life, I'll hunt you down and stamp you out through lawsu... Read more

Regardless the intention of our forefathers (keep in mind slavery/mysoginism was something acceptable at the time), religion has no place in any decision making in the country. It's unfair to the many who don't follow a particular religion or follow something else. It's always unfortunate to see someone in politics who deems it necessary to place THEIR beliefs above the people.

This country was founded of the principal beliefs of personal liberties and freedom. How procaliming any religion as a state religion upholds the values and virtues held so dear to our Founding Fathers is beyond me.

Contrary to popular belief this country was NOT found on Christian foundations and anyone who knows a bit of history would know that the founding fathers were in fact, deists. Thomas Jefferson clearly said that it was too play no part in common law, yet here we are. I am appalled as an atheist and a rationalist.

I would agree with the concept as long as it works both ways. Unfortunately, the defenders of the separation are only concerned with the voice of the majority of the American people who demand freedom of expression of beliefs, while that anti social individuals and especially the ACLU are advocating the silencing of any expression of religious matters in the public domain. Yet, there can never be such a thing as separation of Church and State for a simple reason: many politicians and government officials are religious people and you can't demand to leave religion at home, while religious people are citizens with the same rights as anyone else to stick their noses into any political issue, and you can't demand them to leave political at home. America was established on clear and sound Judeo-Christian principles of faith. No matter how hard liberals and enemies of America, both foreign and domestic try to twist it and distort it, it is an undeniable historical truth.

I'm amazed at how naive Americans are regarding the intent of this amendment. This country was founded on faith in God. It's in EVERY states preamble.

The first amendment really says nothing about separation. It says that government can't establish or supress any religion. The thing that gets everyone in a bunch is exactly what establishing and supressing religion really are. Some freaks decided along the line that neither can even look at each other funny and now we have a bunch of crap lawsuits as a result. To clarify things a tad with a choice example, kids can wear crosses, headscarves, and whatever else they like to school, yet their teacher cannot in a public school because they are an agent of the state. Is that so hard? Maybe another one will help. The government can give a grant to a religious based charity, but the money can't be used for ministry of any sort. Are things becoming clear now? Last one, I swear. The Ten Comandments can be displayed outside a courthouse due to their history as a law code!!!!!UPDATE: Read up if you happen to be missing the other side of the coin...

What part do those nuts in DC not get about "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"

Its an important part of the American conception of religious freedom. The government can't avoid entanglement, nor should it, a balance is in place but I think its ridiculous that a kid can't utter the "J" word in school and not expect the ACLU to come busting down their door.

Direct quote from the first amendment: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..." Basically is says that the government will not create laws that would establish one religion for the whole country; nor any laws that would restrict people from choosing they're own. Personally, I like that idea.

Too much influence by religious right radicals in Whitehouse. Curring favor!

One of the few issues on this list that was also around in 1776. The U.S. founders were, on the whole, stubborn agnostics who made little reference to divine ordinances. Jefferson famously pared down the bible to a 30-page booklet of useful ideas, taking out Christ and most of the silly OT stories. It's sad that this issue remains a matter of debate today, but this is the very reason the far right likes to exploit it: it's an issue they can't win in the United States, so they know that they can ride it to the end of time. From this basic fact arise several strands of fundamentalists: (1) the cynics, like the old Kevin Phillips, who see religion a la Machiavelli as an instrument of rule; (2) the masochists, like Pat Robertson, those who like to see themselves lose and the rest of us suffer in order to feed the sense of persecution they have inherited from extremist strains of Christianity; and (3) the theocrats, those like Bush, who would seem to prefer to live in a society like Saudi A... Read more

Original comment on: 11-29-2005Can anyone tell me where in any of our founding documents you find the words, "Separation", "Church", or "State"? I bet you can't. Anyone who claims they are in there is a liar. You know why? They are not in The Constitution, The Declaration of independence, The Bill of Rights....especially the First Amendment that you probably hold so dear. No, these words are not mentioned in any of our founding documents for this great nation. They were never ratified, nor voted on by the original framers of our Constitution, nor have they ever been a part of any amendment since. The idea of separation of church and state was mention one time by Thomas Jefferson in a letter to the Danbury Baptists of Connecticut. In this letter, not a founding document, Jefferson was trying to sooth concerns among the Baptist about rumors of Congress acknowledging another Protestant denomination. They were worried that this would be a precursor to a state sponsored church such as they ... Read more

Government needs to butt out when it comes to how I choose to practice my religion. I will pray when I need to, read my Bible where I want to, and be a witness through my daily life every single hour I'm up and running. Update: The US Constitution's Establishment Clause only states that the government will not advocate one religion over another (e.g. "official religion" policies or similar), or restrict the free practice of religion by individual citizens. What the "separation of church and state" doctrine tries to do is restrict where people can practice their religious beliefs in violation of the Establishment Clause.

As I have stated in other posts and I repeat now, at the time of the ratification of the First Amendment, some states had established churches. Massachusetts was the last state to disestablish its state church and that was in 1833. The First Amendment was ratified, I think, in 1791. I am against established churches, but I am also against mindless, ignorant blather such as you encounter on this issue.

This country was founded in the belief of God, it is sad to see what has happened to this country.  This issue needs to be dealt with but I fear it is being dealt with in the wrong way.

Often misused, abused or used when it does not apply or is not appropriate.

If church and state are separated then howcome the words "In god we trust" are on all legal currency? and why is gods name mentioned in the pledge of allegiance?

Presumably, a centuries old conspiracy has exposed generations thoroughly to God's name in currency and in the Pledge of Allegiance in order to impose theology subrepticiously into American life and subvert the separation of Church and State. And yet, it seems to have been a miscalculation: from all evidence in the quotidian, you'd have to admit that, by and large, the attempt has failed most resoundingly.

If only it were the case.

I am a Christian. I am aware that the freedoms that allow me to practice Christianity also allow others not to. Most Christians I know quite stupidly follow the pagan Christian right propaganda, not realizing that such things as prayer and posting the ten commandments in schools is a nightmare for Christianity. Any laws that would allow prayer would also allow teachers to lead kids in muslim, JW, budhist, or satanic religious rituals. The same applies to the Ten Commandments in schools. Any law that would allow the Ten Commandments on a school wall would, by constitutional right allow a stone dick in the school yard. Be careful what you ask for.

Separation of state and church is a great thing. I don't think the state should discriminate against anyone for not believing in God. Religious organizations are in complete disagreements about many of their beliefs. Forcing people to follow rules of a God they don't even believe exist is not the right way to govern. Histrically, that approach has never worked in any society.

Absolutely necessary to protecting both government and religion from the other's problems. It is actually mentioned in the Constitution on the first line of the First Amendment which states: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,". Is that so ambiguous?

A good thing for both church AND state. Unfortunately, it gets a bit muddled on both ends more often than not. The problem isn't really what people believe or don't believe though. Like so many other aspects of human interaction the problems boil down to the control freaks and power mongers who forever spoil the peace for the rest of us. Dumb bastards.

No establishment of religion means let's not have "Church of England" in America. This is a good thing. Who wants to fight a war over which sacraments people are to recieve? Seperation of Church and State is a logical step from this.

The Separation of Church and State is a good thing. It's what keeps us from becoming a theocracy. It's a concept that's not meant to eliminate Christian influence in the public square, as it has been used at times, but to protect the church from being controlled by the state and the state from being conrolled by the church. We have seen the effects of nations and states that govern themselves by the precepts of a certain religion. The rights of people who practice other religions are taken away - sometimes even repressed - in favor of whichever religion the state practices. The Founding Fathers themselves came from a country that had established a national church. Though rights were not taken away from those who practiced other religions, non-practicing citizens were ostracized and treated with disdain for their beliefs. The truth is that we aren't a Christian nation. That may or may not have been true when our country was first formed, but in the melting-pot we are today, it's no... Read more

Trying to be fair, I'll note that the concept of separation of church and state itself is not that frivilous. What is, however, is the way so many (or few actually) are able to create controversy where one does not lie. The recent incident in Los Cruces, New Mexico where three or four atheists are claiming that whenever the city's symbol come into their line of sight they become very angry and disturbed is not the first of its kind. If America were such a captive to Christianity that it was in danger of becoming a theocracy (as the ACLU and others contend) why didn't our country, courthouses, townhalls and city parks foster religious battles between religions? Religious harmony so desired cannot be obtained through lawsuits that would be laughable were they not so disturbing.

History is littered with cultures that have failed to understand this principle that is so painfully obvious to anyone with two neurons in his or her head. . .

It is very helpful that we are given freedoms in this country. Our society would not be as great if the individuals were forced to belong to a government controlled religion.

A silly, fictional concept, not found in the US Constitution, employed by liberal partisans, in an effort to remove all things of a religious nature from American Society. SILLY UPDATE: What bill was proposed in the US Congress (either house) to become law establishing a national religion? They all have id numbers, I must have missed it. If you say that it is unconstitutional to print "In God We Trust" on our money, wouldn't that be an endorsement of atheism, and a restriction of free religious expression?

The instrument has yet to be invented that can measure the societal importance of this concept. Without it, a backwards oppressiveness trickles into the other-minded populace, and the theocratic "solution" to the inevitable unrest has historically been violent. Paid a brickload of lip service here in the States, with the current administration doing its knuckle-dragging best to take a pick axe to the foundational mortar (four billion dollars of "faith-based" taxpayer money pissed and spittooned away.....and counting!). Here's a doff of the hat to the millions of theists and nontheists who tirelessly contribute their time, their passion, and their resourcefulness to the preservation and exportation of this centuries-old idea that embodies genuine equity in governance.

When the "Church",or any religious entity,controls society you end up with persecution and totalitarianism.If you like the idea,look at Saudi Arabia,where it is illegal to be Christian or Jewish.

Of course it's helpful. Imagine an entire world made up of countries like Iran, Saudi Arabia, or the former Taliban Afghanistan.

What is primarily separating us from Iraq and Iran. The value is almost too substantial to calculate. There is no person as intolerant as one who is convinced he is acting upon God's will.

That's right. Myths have no place in the government based in reality.